Oneness
Interview with Christopher Hildebrandt
- …light, which is our essence, has been so well organized by us so as to blind ourselves to it and the practice. As far as I can see, in any of the wisdom traditions, is the practice of learning how to open the eyes, so that we can shift identification from conditions.
- …light dispels darkness. We must allow the light to do its work. This is why Christ; Krishna - all these people - came down to lend a hand and to work for good.
- This is the thing about seeking. This is what I've found. This gaining idea, I want the truth. I wish to unite with God.” This idea is a hindrance. It is a terrible hindrance and, yet, the aspiration must be there. We must allow the aspiration to purify, so that there is nothing selfish. If the aspiration is unselfish, then nothing else is required.
- Forms were only ever meant to be "a means,” not "an ends.” So, any attachment to form - any form - you have got to let it go.
Ann: (Beginning with an opening prayer). O Lord, holy light, I praise you and I thank you for bringing us together tonight. We pray and trust that Divine Light will flow around us and through us and there will be some very important and loving things that will be on this tape that will go out into the world. We thank you so much, again, for bringing us together for this work.
Christopher: May each of us - all beings - recognize that sweet shining of the light and realize that light as self.
Ann: Would you like to add a prayer? Tell me your name again, please.
Jennifer: Jennifer. I would just like to say, may we all have courage and carry it to each person we meet, every day.
Nanette: May we have the serenity to allow the light into us and allow it to flow through us and to others.
Ann: Well, first, I'd just like to let you know that Christopher has just opened a new Yoga Center, right here in Manhattan, called Karma Yoga, and it's on 65th Street, right off Central Park West and Columbus Avenue. It's a beautiful place and we're sitting here in the Yoga Center to do these questions about Christopher's spiritual path.
The first question is, what spiritual tradition were you were raised in?
Christopher: This is a difficult question. I am from Pennsylvania and that's part of what used to be called, "Christendom.” My father's parents were fundamentalist missionaries, in Africa, and my father was born and raised in Africa. He had sort of an awful childhood, because the children were all farmed out. They were sent all around the world to different people and maltreated in schools and foster homes. So, he became radically anti-fundamentalist, or fanatic, and told everybody, but the other way. My mother was raised Presbyterian and she, also, sort of needed to escape a bit from her community. So, she wasn't very involved in church activities, but we, my brother and my two sisters and I, were brought up in an exploratory way. We had to learn Catholic catechism and all about many, many different religious traditions. We went, periodically, to the Presbyterian Church where my Grandmother, Aunt, and Uncle all go, but we had irregular church attendance and we were encouraged to be freethinking. So, I guess, you can call it, "An American Story,” but, certainly, I wasn't raised solely as a believing Christian, although I was given a Christian upbringing.
Ann: You talk of other religions, or was it just other Christian paths?
Christopher: Other religions.
Ann: So, that is a very progressive home. Usually, when I interview people, it's later, at like 14, or 15, or 20, or when you leave the family, there is a sense of questioning, or re-evaluating, or trying other things, but you, early on, were given the full scope.
Christopher: Yes.
Ann: How long did you follow a Christian tradition? Did you ever feel like you did?
Christopher: I feel I do, but I don't suppose that it's a formal tradition that would be acknowledged. I mean, my fundamentalist missionary Grandmother and I have a very good understanding and we read and talk together, sometimes, about it. It's all self-taught, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of Christianity, because I find the exoteric tradition is so often misinterpreted. The esoteric tradition of Christianity is very beautiful. I think it's the same with all the religions. You have thirteen down at the bottom and, the further up and in you go, on any path, the closer that all the points converge. So, the exoteric tradition is superficial and it's a matter of the particular forms and forms are just vehicles. It's good to have lots of different ways and means, but they're not the truth.
Ann: So, have there been times that you have lost faith with Christianity?
Christopher: I guess there have been periods, when I was young, when I certainly did not consider myself a Christian. I suppose that, now, if I had to formally declare a religion, I might say I was Buddhist, rather than Christian. I had a very dark period, when I was in graduate school, when I lost faith with everything. I lost faith in everything.
Ann: What were you studying in graduate school?
Christopher: I was studying Philology - Classical Philology/Ancient Philology, and I have been pursuing western philosophy, very intensely. I sort of reached the limit of the discursive mind.
Ann: Tell us, how did that shift? I can see that this is incredibly important to you. You just radiate light. Tell us what happened.
Christopher: Well, I started doing Yoga when I was in graduate school. I started studying Sanskrit and I took an Asana class in the Iyengar tradition to get relief from graduate school. It was effective and the Yoga just grew and grew and it saved me. It saved my life. I am, therefore, extremely grateful to all my teachers in the Yoga tradition.
Ann: Talk to me a little bit about why you think that helped? You were raised in an open-minded family that taught traditional religion and you further developed your mind in a more intellectual way. Then, this shift happened. Tell us about that. It's very important.
Christopher: Yoga is experimental method. So, the only faith needed is faith in our ability to entertain certain working assumptions and, then, to see what happens. So, it was very scientific. It worked. It was also very physical. I started with Asana practice, learning postures, and using my body. The separation and division of the body and mind are false but, when I was a child, I was really more a Platonist than anything else. I identified very strongly with Platonism and I hated the body. I was a sort of Gnostic in terms of attitude. I hated my body and refused to move and I am from a family of dancers. The women in my family are all dancers. My mother had a dance studio, taught dance, and trained. We had ballet dancers, my sisters were both dancers, and I refused ever to do a dance class and move, at all, or do anything physical, unless it was absolutely forced. I just read. I read constantly. I was always reading, so I was entirely 'in the head'. So, the Yoga Asana postures helped me reconnect with this body and start opening to the whole of this being.
Ann: And how many years have you been doing it?
Christopher: Again, that's a hard question. That was a long time ago, when I was in grad school and, then, I was only doing an Iyengar class once, or twice, a week, or something. I didn't start a regular, or almost daily, practice of Asana until I came to New York City and I started at Jivamukti and their teacher-training program. I guess that was eight years ago? Since then, I've been studying with my teacher in India, regularly, for seven years.
Ann: Do you go to India to study there, or do you do it here?
Christopher: I've been five times to India and he's been here.
Ann: And what is his name?
Christopher: Sri K. Pattabhi Jois of the Astanga Yoga tradition.
Ann: You're working in New York City and I am from the country, so when I come here and I feel the energy of the City, Yoga is a method to bring peace and centeredness in celebration of the body. What a wonderful gift to bring here.
Christopher: Yeah and it feels good. There are Yoga schools all over Manhattan, now.
Ann: Now, there is a lot of intellectual stuff that goes with the Yoga, isn't there?
Christopher: Yes.
Ann: Is that important to you, or is it more just the movement of the body?
Christopher: Oh, the Asana is only one of the eight main limbs of Yoga.
Ann: Okay, tell us about the other seven.
Christopher: Oh, you really want to go through them, now? It would be long.
Ann: Okay, maybe that's not - For the people who come to the site, I am trying to open their minds to the versatility of becoming fully alive.
Christopher: Well, here, last Thursday, I offered a Bhagavad-Gita class and we chanted through a chapter of the Gita, in Sanskrit, and, then, we discussed it afterward. Shortly, I will be adding a Yoga Sutra class where we will do a similar thing with the Yoga Sutras. So, those are the two basic scriptures for the Yoga tradition, although there are many, many others. Those are the two important ones in my tradition.
Ann: Can you see a bridge between the truth of Yoga, or Bhagavad-Gita, and Christianity? Do you see a connection?
Christopher: Yoga means, "connection.”
Ann: Yoga means, "to connect.”
Christopher: For me, Krishna and Christ are cognate.
Ann: Can you say what "cognate" means to you? I know what the word means, but what does that mean when you say "cognate?”
Christopher: Well, literally, it means, "born together" and what I mean by it is that they are each immediate links connecting the absolute and the relative, or the divine and the human. Whatever words you want to use.
Nanette: But not separate links from one another.
Christopher: No, the form is a little different, even though the form is a little similar, because the source is the same. The source is the same and the message is the same. The words are a little different here and there.
Ann: You said, a little earlier here, that you would name yourself a Buddhist, so is Buddha in the same realm?
Christopher: Yes.
Ann: The Master.
Christopher: Yes.
Ann: Now, I know it's very difficult to put something that profound into words, but what would you say are the bridges? If you get to the essence of the truth, coming from Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, what is it that is coming down through those light waves for humanity?
Christopher: The Sanskrit word for "star" is "Tara,” which you might also know as the Buddhist bodhisattva, compassion. The word Tara means crossing, or transitive, or transfer. Like an "Avatar,” meaning one who crosses down, like Krishna who is an Avatar. The other great Masters, if they are in the form of a Sun Hero the way that Christ and Buddha are in the form of a Sun Hero, are called "Avataras.” They are stars that come down and they cross. So, stars have tremendous energy. This star, our sun, is the source of all existence here; all matter here. Everything that is and sustains every thing that is with that tremendous energy. That tremendous energy is only a pinpoint, only a shadow of Absolute Being, unconditional love, and pure awareness. So, we think this in the womb of God, identified with conditions of being, knowing and loving. Infinite, unconditional being, knowing, and loving, these three form a trinity from our perspective. So, that light, which is our essence, has been so well organized by us so as to blind ourselves to it and the practice. As far as I can see, in any of the wisdom traditions, is the practice of learning how to open the eyes, so that we can shift identification from conditions; everything that's changing and passing, including this body and life, to what is really being, knowing, and loving.
Ann: I've had tiny flashes that give me a sense of what you're saying, but for somebody beginning to seek, what separates the average person from that profound light, knowing and connection?
Christopher: There is fear. We are identified with this body and mind and we judge and assess this body and mind, reacting adversely to part of what we take to be ourselves. As long as we are not fully aware of our identifications, what we take to constitute ourselves, which are deep in the mind, then that of which we are unconscious will govern our consciousness. So, that part of us, which we reject, will prevent us from attaining full consciousness. It forms an obstacle, an obstruction. So, first, we must observe and see ourselves, as best we may, constantly and honestly. With that seeing and pattern recognition of how we are behaving and how we are thinking, we must acknowledge and accept. The whole must be accepted. Then, what we experience as negative is transmuted. It's like a Venetian blind.
Ann: The light is there and you just need to pull that string.
Christopher: Yes.
Ann: In each of the interviews that I've done, there have been teachers that come unexpectedly into our lives. Can you talk about transitions that you've had where the blind opens and there's a new teacher, or there's a new forum, or there's a new way to help you with your own path? Any stories?
Christopher: Yes, a very big one.
Ann: Good, because that is very helpful. It's really gritty and very useable.
Christopher: I've always had a very powerful imagination and I've always been moody, they tell me. The worst and best thing happened to me, more than a year ago, now. I went into a manic state. I wasn't eating, or sleeping. I was engaging in intense practice from long before daybreak till night. I moved from mania into psychosis and I lost my sanity. So, afterwards, I was diagnosed as a manic-depressive and this mind, which I've always identified with, turned out to be rather unreliable. So, I am regarding it as my best teacher. I've totally changed my approach to practice, because a major part of my mania and psychosis was all related to spiritual practice. So, I gave up all chanting and Sanskrit and I gave up Asana practice for a long time. I stopped sitting practice for a very long time. I'm slowly coming back to chanting and Asana practice, but I have a whole different attitude towards my practices, now. I've sort of switched. Before, I was very strongly attracted to Vajrayana Mahayana, Tibetan Buddhism, and I still am. I love them and have done meetings with them on Sunday to talk about putting a shrine in here, but I no longer do any Vajrayana practices, or anything that involves imagination. I have sort of switched to a Zen tradition, because, for me, at least right now, the imagination is a very difficult tool to employ. This was a very enlightening experience to go mad and to recover. It has enabled me to dispense with the notion of gaining ideas, a sort of goal-oriented approach to the spirit.
Ann: What you are saying is incredibly important. You're the first one who has spoken about this, in this way, and I think that in reading many, many books about opening to spirit, that this kind of thing can happen unless we have bounds and good teachers. Being a zealous person, you went at it zealously. So, bounds are incredibly important.
Christopher: Yes, Srimad Bhagavad, the Gita, tells us that "balance" is Yoga.
Ann: (To Nanette) Do you have any questions, or anything?
Nanette: No, I just feel his pain. I'm sorry.
Ann: You don't have to be sorry.
Nanette: I'm glad that you see that healing.
Christopher: It was the best thing that ever happened to me and it was the most horrible thing that ever happened to me. I sort of went through a crucifixion, as part of my psychosis. It was very horrid, the whole thing - the passion, the crucifixion, and everything - but, so much of our mind stream is fantasy and so much is illusion and projection. I'm very grateful that major portions of that are gone.
Nanette: Then, you're lucky.
Christopher: Yes.
Ann: Or guided.
Nanette: Or guided. I mean that implies a lot, which doesn't have to do with all the work you've done.
Ann: Having a spiritual community around you that loves you, supports you, and understands you is so important. You have a very spiritual family that is very diverse. I met your sister and she is absolutely full of light, a beautiful, radiant woman. She is also a Yoga teacher. Was it community around you? Was it the teachers around you? What were the support systems that helped you through?
Christopher: Oh, my family. I was taken home. My sister took me home. Well, my teachers, too, of course. Potentially young and shallow, I was practicing the Ashtanga Yoga Shala in a highly manic state and terrifying everyone, totally unbeknownst to me.
Ann: You thought you were fine!
Christopher: Yes.
Nanette: They were all in the other room at the time.
Christopher: Well, I was very high, but my teacher and good friend, Eddie Stern, called my sister and said, "You come and take him.” He wanted to have me taken to hospital, directly, and she said, "No,” because she knew that if I was put in hospital, in New York, that it would be very bad for me. She said, "I'll take him home.” So, she took me home to my family and that's where I was for half the year. I lived with my Grandmother, the fundamentalist missionary, in a house in the woods on a hill, with her little dog. I took care of forty rose bushes and my parents' grounds, at the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire. So, it was very good. Gardening is very good.
Ann: It's very good. I know another person who has gone through something similar to this and, again, he said the same thing. For him, it wasn't gardening, but it was really the nitty-gritty work, the constancy, and having people around him who loved and supported him and understood what was happening. They made no demands on him, but set up systems to grab. So, for him, they started out, very simply, by just fixing vegetables and, then, he worked up to cooking and cleaning the kitchen. Everything that was absolutely, you might even say, mundane, but not really mundane if you're really there and doing it. It took a long time, six months to a year. So, it's not rare for that to happen, when somebody breaks through to another realm, to have to come back slowly. You're right, too, that if they put you in a hospital, they would just drug you and knock you out, because they would be frightened by what you were doing and they would have no understanding. I know there is a whole spiritual network, a crisis spiritual network, so that if you have this kind of a breakthrough, you call these people and they get you help. It's the "Center for Spiritual and Psychological Health,” run by Stanislav and Christina Groff, a psychiatrist and his wife. I had to call them, because I didn't know what was happening to my family member. They put me in touch with a psychiatrist who said, "He should not be in a hospital, take him home.” So, it's important to know the difference between spiritual opening, like that, and someone who has just lost their mind in a different way. It's very, very different. So, you were protected, blessed, and taken through the fire. Like you say, it's the worst and it's the best, right?
Do you have any sense as to why you've been brought through that journey? Here you are, a spiritual teacher, this is your center; you're going to touch hundreds of people, right? How did this experience change you?
Christopher: I had big blocks.
Ann: So, you figure they had to be burned away?
Christopher: Burning is what Yoga suggests is "tapas.”
Ann: Burning. Burn, burn, and burn.
Christopher: Yes, it's a good method.
Ann: So, you come from a family that is very diverse, very well educated, both in spiritual path and intellectual path, and we are living in times of such darkness. The war has just started. What do your traditions and the way that you've put it together say about darkness, whether it's war, drugs, or any kind of abuses? What kinds of things could you share about that and this Divine Light that we know is here, also?
Christopher: Well, light dispels darkness. We must allow the light to do its work. This is why Christ; Krishna - all these people - came down to lend a hand and to work for good. So, non-action is not an option, but Krishna tells us in Gita that beings must act. So, we should do what we can to foster the light and to be vigilant to make sure that we are not, by indulging in division, cultivating darkness in ourselves. That is, that the enemy is an inner enemy and, if ignorance, hatred, and lust are in us and our actions arise from ignorance, hatred, and lust, rather than freely from being knowing and loving, then those actions in opposition will be ineffectual. So, the teaching, as I understand it, is to eliminate the inner enemy, first of all, and that essential action is enough. Once the opening for the light is wide enough, the light dispels the dark.
Ann: So, are light and dark just here on planet earth, or are there light and dark in heavenly realms?
Christopher: You don't talk about heavenly realms! Okay, we can talk about good stuff here. There is light, here, and it's nice. The sun is nice. However, this light, which is so lovely, is just a shadow of unconditional love. It's a messenger, a harbinger, only. So, beyond these conditions, so seemingly unfavorable, light beyond light, not available to these senses and not available to the experiencing mind, is at the heart of each of us. For us to be, simply. Not to experience, but to be.
Ann: So, to someone who is a seeker, what would you say to encourage somebody on that path? When you tell me the story of your path, I feel like there are ribbons of energy that moved you, here and there, and all of those things were for the development of your being. You are still a very young man, so you still have a long path to go. As you said, sometimes the very darkest things give you the most depth, breadth, understanding, and compassion. So, for somebody who is seeking, how can we encourage them on their path?
Christopher: Well, the standard is to act skillfully and not to act unskillfully. So, if you've figured out what is skillful, you're set.
Ann: You're set, but you could go to each of these different religions and learn different skills.
Christopher: It's good to have a big toolkit. The sincere intention is enough. It's certainly enough, because what it is, is closer than we think.
Ann: I think I know what you're saying. Can you say a little bit more about that? I, also, believe it's very close. Could you develop that thought for someone to understand that who may be reading at this site?
Christopher: This is the thing about seeking. This is what I've found. This "gaining" idea, "I want the truth. I wish to unite with God.” This idea is a hindrance. It is a terrible hindrance and, yet, the aspiration must be there. We must allow the aspiration to purify, so that there is nothing selfish. If the aspiration is unselfish, then nothing else is required.
Ann: Truly, when you see a mystical person, you don't feel any aspirations. I've always taken to that. You know, there are people who are striving to serve God, or connect with God, or the Divine, and they are hard to be with. Then, you'll meet a person who has transcended that and there isn't any aspiration and they are one with it and it so beautiful. I studied with some Buddhist monks and nuns up in Carmel, New York. I was teaching English, as a second language. When I first went to see these people, I idealized them. I thought, "Oh, my gosh, they're monks and nuns, so they must be perfection.” You know, they look different and they're wearing robes and their heads are shaved. Then, I realized, within that monastery, there were all levels of understanding. There were really nasty, bitchy people and, then, there were people who could transcend this, who were highly efficient, organized, and doing good work, but there wasn't any ego. There wasn't any darkness, but it was only a few people. Then, I have a friend, a Catholic Sister, who I have also interviewed and I was saying to her that some of these people are just witches, and she said, "Oh, well, come to a Catholic monastery and you will find exactly the same thing!" So, in the monastic life, there is that great danger, but there are, also, people who can just transcend that. Can you say anything about that? Does that touch you when I say that?
Christopher: I don't know those people, but I know about me and how I was. The conjecture, at any rate, is the case with me that this is an attachment to form. Forms were only ever meant to be "a means,” not "an ends.” So, any attachment to form - any form - you have got to let it go.
Ann: Slowly.
Christopher: Slowly, right, because it's all got to go, all identification. "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" means, "Don't dwell in anything, at all.” No identification. So, we have to learn to let go of all forms and see them as expressions of the same light.
Ann: In this site, we are talking about "American Spiritual Paths.” I think, as Americans, it's harder to do that, because we are so individualistic. We're so zealous and tremendous creativity comes out of that, but then to move towards formlessness is …
Christopher: Well, we have to do form, first, right? That's part of the problem with America. We don't have one dominant form. We're not a traditional culture with a single dominant tradition, or traditional form, and we need that, first. You've got to have form, first. You've got to have the means and form is the means. So, that must be there, first, before we can move past it.
Ann: So, moving towards formlessness, where the form is very specific, like in a traditional Buddhist path - where the country is Buddhist and you are raised Buddhist - and having that in, around, and through you, might be a little easier than here, in New York City?
Christopher: Maybe. I mean everybody has the same stuff.
Ann: What do you feel our place in the world is, as human begins?
Christopher: "Our place,” meaning America?
Ann: No, our place just as humans. It could be England, Russia, America, or China, but, as human beings, why do we come down from the spiritual realm to get into this form? Why don't we just stay in spirit, if it's so great there? What is the meaning of coming into form?
Christopher: We are created in the image of the Lord. So, one might say that the purpose of manifestation is "mirroring,” to provide a mirror. Now, the Lord don't need no mirror!
Nanette: It's for one another.
Christopher: We serve as mirrors for one another.
Ann: So, our learning is in the mix of everybody attaching?
Christopher: Oh yes, everyone sharing.
Ann: So, in closing, is there anything you'd like to say to seekers who come to the site? Do you have you any closing comments?
Christopher: I'd like to thank you, and you, and you (indicating people in room). I'd like to extend my best wishes to all who read this and invite all who read to come here, or to talk with me. You're all most welcome.
Ann: Well, thank you for that closing.
Christopher Hildebrandt is a Yoga Master Teacher at Karma Yoga Center,
4th Floor, 37 W. 65th St., NY 10023
